Napoli v. Milan
By: Gianfranco | March 22nd, 2009
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Oh and how could we possibly know what a potential new coach would do?
But Rijkaard has a better history with youngsters imho than ancelotti, though I guess that is a point of view judgement and not everyone will agree with me
Posted from
Australia
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“shehan, the losing did start when ten cate left so i guess thats all the proof you need to say his departure had a significant effect.”
That really is my main point. I dont believe in coincidences and barca’s impotence coincided with his departure. Suddenly Barca couldnt finish off opponents, suddenly they lost all their ruthlessness, giving away multiple goal leads.
I know, sounds like us right now, but they actually had an amazing defense while we have one thats falling apart, so I dont know how he would be a step up on ancelotti. I know when ancelotti has good defensive personnel, he has had a fantastic defensive record so I would argue that it isnt even Ancelotti’s tactical ineptitude thats giving away goals for Milan right now.
“But if we get Rijkaard then we could get him another ten cate-like assisstant and then theres no reason why that partnership couldnt be better than ancelotti”
Maybe, Maybe not. I would rather not take the chance.
Posted from
United States -
patcook, at the same time the observation can be made that rijkaard has dealt with more gifted youngsters than ancelotti. but at the same time, age is irrelevant to the quality of a player.
and i honesty don’t think much of paloschi. he’s only got 5 goals in about 20 serie B games. besides his work-rate, he’s nothing to gawk about. he was absolutely horrible in some of the preseason friendlies. and it wasn’t his decision making that was poor (which can be attributed to inexperience) but his passing and shooting were horribly off.
Posted from
United States -
“You seem to be suggesting that Carlo has some magic youth policy that will come to life some time soon, but I just dnt see it and i think your the only one who does if you really do believe that”
Well, he is given players like kaka, pato, but he is the one who coaches them. Dont disregard that. He fucked up on gourcuff, and that still pisses me off. Paloschi, like abate and di gennaro need that playing time outside of milan. Italy is not like the spanish league, they dont have the B teams that get good playing time against reasonable opponents.
And I have definitely seen quotes after the 07 final when he wanted to bring in ribery and toni(bayern went for them instead)
We all know he wanted palombo and eto’o last year.
Posted from
United States -
“and i honesty don’t think much of paloschi. he’s only got 5 goals in about 20 serie B games. besides his work-rate, he’s nothing to gawk about. he was absolutely horrible in some of the preseason friendlies. and it wasn’t his decision making that was poor (which can be attributed to inexperience) but his passing and shooting were horribly off.”
sounds like the next inzaghi. Just needs better shooting. :p
I know its a huge label to place on the kid, but I think he will come through. Although it wont be the first time i was wrong if he doesnt.
Posted from
United States -
Maybe, Maybe not. I would rather not take the chance.
Not really a chance when were losing though is it. Though I guess you could say its a chance at winning, but we wouldnt want that right? we’d prefer to be ‘loyal’ and let ancelotti rebuild for 50 million years like arsene wenger at Arsenal.
At least Arsenal look like theyre rebuilding we look like some massive beast thats been shot and is slowly hobbling along while the hunters close into finish it off.
K, you say youre confident we’ll get top 4, but our last 4 games are Juve and Roma at Home and Fiorentina and Udinese Away. We will need more than a 5 point lead to come out of that in 4th, especially considering we couldnt seal the deal in a close race last season.
Posted from
Australia -
of course, i hope paloschi comes through, i wish him the best. but he still has a lot to prove.
i don’t think carlo is FULLY responsible for gourcuff’s [imminent] departure. gourcuff simply did not do enough with whatever chances he was given.
Posted from
United States -
Paloschi, like abate and di gennaro need that playing time outside of milan
I was kinda hoping Paloschi would be better than those two. He is two or 3 years younger than them and if his development takes as long I cant see how he is going to help us win trophies any time soon
Posted from
Australia -
Well, he is given players like kaka, pato, but he is the one who coaches them. Dont disregard that.
Kaka was 21 when he got to Milan and almost fully developed, all ancelotti did was bulk him up and move him up the pitch so he didnt have to defend. Good ideas but hardly anything special that noone else could have come up with.
His other major claim to youth development is Andrea Pirlo who was 22 when he got to Milan and again all ancelotti did was reposition him.
So maybe we can say Ancelotti can find positions which bring out the best in youngsters, tho im not sure hes even all that well proven at doing that, but I think you’ll be hard pressed to say he has any spectacular ability at turning youth from potential into ability.
Certainly no better than the great majority of top coaches atm.
Posted from
Australia -
I just wanna say that I dont mean to take away everything from ancelotti, i think he is a good coach, its just his time has come and gone at Milan, for this stint anyway.
Its just that K and other pro-ancelotti commentors cloak ancelotti in this ‘unbeatable’, ‘best cl coach’, second-coming rhetoric to emphasis their point, so i feel that as an anti-ancelotti commentator i have to do the opposite with my rhetoric to make my point.
Especially when K makes remarks like when we ‘really, really think about it we have to agree’, like their is just one answer
Posted from
Australia -
K, i just want to re-emphasis that you made it sound like all the successful transfers were ancelotti’s idea and all the bad ones weren’t. Just cos there are quotes with him saying he wanted Eto’o or palombo or whatever, he said the same about Ronnie, Sheva and Becks at different points.
Im pretty sure i remember you ripping into us for blaming ancelotti for loses and crediting the players for wins, how is what youve done with transfers any different?
Posted from
Australia -
“Kaka was 21 when he got to Milan and almost fully developed, all ancelotti did was bulk him up and move him up the pitch so he didnt have to defend. Good ideas but hardly anything special that noone else could have come up with.
His other major claim to youth development is Andrea Pirlo who was 22 when he got to Milan and again all ancelotti did was reposition him.
So maybe we can say Ancelotti can find positions which bring out the best in youngsters, tho im not sure hes even all that well proven at doing that, but I think you’ll be hard pressed to say he has any spectacular ability at turning youth from potential into ability.
Certainly no better than the great majority of top coaches atm.”
You sure are over simplifying this. Pato is one thing, but Kaka we signed for 8 million without much competition at all. No one thought too much of him until he exploded at Milan. And he won a golden ball here and you really think that coaching him and teaching him had nothing to do with it? If that was the case then shouldnt he just have won the golden ball the first year he was here? You cant oversimplify the importance of his coaching these players like that. It would be like saying ferguson had nothing to do with ronaldo’s development, which is definitely not true. A coach has a very important role in the development of a player. And 21 is hardly an age that you can say is fully developed.
Pirlo, too was hardly fully developed. Its not like he just moved his position and then said, on with it. do what you do. There is tactics, movement, and plenty of other stuff involved.
Posted from
United States -
“I just wanna say that I dont mean to take away everything from ancelotti, i think he is a good coach, its just his time has come and gone at Milan, for this stint anyway.Its just that K and other pro-ancelotti commentors cloak ancelotti in this ‘unbeatable’, ‘best cl coach’, second-coming rhetoric to emphasis their point, so i feel that as an anti-ancelotti commentator i have to do the opposite with my rhetoric to make my point.ts just that K and other pro-ancelotti commentors cloak ancelotti in this ‘unbeatable’, ‘best cl coach’, second-coming rhetoric to emphasis their point, so i feel that as an anti-ancelotti commentator i have to do the opposite with my rhetoric to make my point.”
HAHAHA. That is truly hilarious, patcook. And I mean that in a good way, not as an insult(just to be clear). I totally over emphasize just to combat the extreme negativity towards him. haha.
Although, I will stand by my best CL coach in current circulation statement. 2 CL trophies, a final and a semifinal in like 6-7 years is an unmatched achievement. I will argue to the death on that one
Posted from
United States -
true but i think tactics and fitness can be taught at any age, I think its skill and technique that you need to develop while youre really young.
I think Kaka and Pirlo both had the skill by the time they got to milan, and yeh ancelotti helped them with the other stuff. I pointed out that i ” dont mean to take away everything from ancelotti”, i just dont think we should overstate his ability as a manger either.
21 can be considered old when a lot of people argue that Wenger just poaches talent like fabregas and walcott. They were like 16, so by your arguement they cant be poached bcos they dont have talent yet. But players do have a lot of talent by 16/21.
Let me put it this way. Guys coming out of high school or college in America have plenty of talent but dont always make it, Donovan Mcnabb was a really low draft pick considering what his done.
My point is that most players who might become good already have 90% of the skills and talent theyll ever need, those that make are the ones who build up the experience and handle the pressure.
My point about Kaka is that ancelotti only had to refine the product not create. I cant think of a guy who Ancelotti coached at the age of 16-19 who has become a world class player.
So to summarise I dont think Carlo has proven he can develop the skill of youngsters, just refine them once others have done that initial work.
Posted from
Australia -
I totally over emphasize just to combat the extreme negativity towards him. haha.
It can be frustrating K, i didnt want to suggest you started it or caused it, just wanted to point out its annoying that were forced to take extreme views to make a point.
If Man U win this year then SAF would have to be the best CL manager in circulation right?
Posted from
Australia -
“K, i just want to re-emphasis that you made it sound like all the successful transfers were ancelotti’s idea and all the bad ones weren’t. Just cos there are quotes with him saying he wanted Eto’o or palombo or whatever, he said the same about Ronnie, Sheva and Becks at different points.
Im pretty sure i remember you ripping into us for blaming ancelotti for loses and crediting the players for wins, how is what youve done with transfers any different?”
Patcook, Ancelotti actually said pretty clearly that he would prefer eto’o over dinho coz he was better suited to the team. He has been salivating over him for as long as I can remember.
Once Galliani went ahead with Dinho, Ancelotti did say that he would welcome him with open arms, I wont deny that.
Ancelotti has had failed transfers, gila, gourcuff to name a few. I am not saying he is faultless. But you guys have covered the negative in excellent detail, so I feel i dont need to go there much.
I really dislike sheva now, so i wont bother talking about him, my bias is undeniable.
Dinho, I would say that blame rests on the shoulders of both ancelotti and dinho and that definitely needs to be acknowledged. Becks, in my view has been very successful so far, so not much to talk about there.
The one transfer ancelotti really wanted this year was flamini, and I was actually surprised to see him not get enough playing time earlier on. But he has really stepped it up in recent weeks, in my view. I know others disagree on that.
Posted from
United States -
“true but i think tactics and fitness can be taught at any age, I think its skill and technique that you need to develop while youre really young.”
I would have to agree with that whole post of yours.
Posted from
United States -
“If Man U win this year then SAF would have to be the best CL manager in circulation right?”
Eh. Ancelotti’s record in the CL is still equal, if not better. (personally, i would say its better. If you include final and semi appearances.)
“It can be frustrating K, i didnt want to suggest you started it or caused it, just wanted to point out its annoying that were forced to take extreme views to make a point.”
yeah, true. Cant help it much, its a cycle. Started somewhere, but we just kept it going.
Posted from
United States -
I blame ancelotti for Sheva bcos i think his relationship with Sheva was the main reason for him going to Chelsea, I dont buy the whole language thing. Especially since Carlo prides himself on being everyones bum chum its rediculous that he fell out with his best player at the time.
SAF had a huge long run with Man u of making the knockout stages until that debacle a few years ago when they came 4th in the group stage. If he wins this year that will be 2 in 2 years as compared to ancelottis 2 in 7 and it will be 3-2 to SAF overall.
Posted from
Australia -
anyway i gotta go.
just finish by saying ancelotti good coach, but needs to go
Posted from
Australia -
“My point about Kaka is that ancelotti only had to refine the product not create. I cant think of a guy who Ancelotti coached at the age of 16-19 who has become a world class player.”
pato…
Posted from
United States -
I blame ancelotti for Sheva bcos i think his relationship with Sheva was the main reason for him going to Chelsea, I dont buy the whole language thing. Especially since Carlo prides himself on being everyones bum chum its rediculous that he fell out with his best player at the time.”
Patcook, there is no evidence to even suggest that Ancelotti fell out with sheva. I havent heard murmurs or nothing. This is literally the first I have ever heard about anything like that. Sheva was a prince at Milan. Ancelotti treated him like one. Like how kaka is treated currently. I dont know if someone can confirm or deny, but I really didnt think there was anything wrong with their relationship
“SAF had a huge long run with Man u of making the knockout stages until that debacle a few years ago when they came 4th in the group stage. If he wins this year that will be 2 in 2 years as compared to ancelottis 2 in 7 and it will be 3-2 to SAF overall.”
Yeah except, SAF has about 20 years on Ancelotti’s career. So currently its 2-2. Which is almost embarrassing for one of the most decorated and celebrated coaches of all time. And lets not count Man United’s chickens before they hatch.
Posted from
United States -
K, I am with you, I believe if you give Carletto the same time and confidence in job security as SAF, he far exceeds SAF in CL quality and silverware. He is a more intelligent coach, not taking anything away from SAF, but it sure as shit helps when you have some of the players in the game on the pitch for you week in and week out…
Posted from
United States -
Carlo liked Sheva and when he backstabbed Milan to go to Chelsea,Carlo was disgusted and this is his way of paying him back for his stupidity.
Posted from
United States -
“backstabbed Milan” what? were they married? give me a break, its professional sports! morons! In addition to all the success and trophies Shev brought to Milan they also made a hell of a lot of money when he went to Chelsea.
Posted from
United States
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